I just looked at Fountain's 1)"Ten eclectic podcasts that listeners on Fountain love" and 2)"Ten eclectic podcasts that listeners on Fountain love"
And here's what I found...
Of the Top 10 Bitcoin Podcast, only one is using a Host found on https://podcastindex.org/apps?appTypes=hosting
Libsyn doesn't show itself as support value, but does appear to have a way to put custom tags into the feed.
Of the Top 10 Eclectic, the four podcasts with the valueBlock in the feed are all self-hosted.
However, there are now three podcast hosts, and one video host that allows a podcaster to put the the valueBlock in the feed.
By continuing Podcaster Wallet, we are encouraging people to keep using Anchor, instead of sending the strong signal if you want to be supported through streaming payments, you need to use a better host. Those host are now available, and we should encourage there innovation by sending them podcasters that want to enable value in their feed.
I think it's time to start weaning podcasters off of Podcaster Wallet. It was always meant to be shim, not a solution, with the idea the host would start implementing the value block. It's been over a year of proving the valueBlock works, and any host that doesn't want to innovate with us should lose their podcasters to hosts who are willing to innovate. That will only happen when we remove the shim.
@StevenB Podcaster Wallet is the only reason we started the discussion on the .well-known v4v fee advertisement, because it inherently isn't the source of truth.
Since we're not ready to add value directly to our feeds (for complicated software development lifecycle reasons only), we had to come up with a reasonable way for people to claim their feeds in services like podcaster wallet or fountain while not getting away with without a host fee.
Not having the shim would certainly simplify this.
If your feet were to the fire, how long do you estimate it would take you to implement a UI for your users to input their wallet info and you start adding a value block to each NAT feed?
I understand you're an engineer, so do things a quite a bit more professionally than I do, so I'm just curious how long you think it would take to properly build something out.
I'm thinking the weaning would be 3-6 months to give hosts a chance to build the infrastructure if they wanted to.
@StevenB If I didn't plan on upstreaming everything I've done to PeerTube, I could do it in a day.
The issue is I don't plan on maintaining my own fork forever. I have to work within the confines of how the original developers would want the feature. That decision creates two very different paths of implementation, one much longer than the other.
I think by the end of the year would be reasonable. That would be right around the 2 year anniversary for value enabled podcasts. Any host who hasn't implemented by then probably doesn't want to anyway.
@StevenB Should we then also remove apps that don't do value4value?
I don't think we should force anyone to do anything at this juncture.
A lot of moving parts for everyone on all sides of the ecosystem. Give it time. Podcasting is a slow mover. Good stuff always is.
I'm not suggesting we remove apps or force anyone to do anything. If our mantra and guiding philosophy is the 'feed is the source of truth', then I'm suggesting we make plans to move in that direction now that there are hosts available that make that possible.
Right now, for 75% of podcasts that are value enabled, the Podcaster Wallet is the source of truth for value. If that's the direction you want to continue going, I understand, but it will mean many more podcasters are affected when \ if you move to the feed being the source of truth for value. May be better to do it sooner than later before more podcasters are using Podcaster Wallet as a shim.
@StevenB @adam I am hosted by Podbean, which supports no Podcasting 2.0 features. I wanted to self-host when my year plan ran out but Castopod was not quite ready for me at the time. So I am riding that pony around the sun one more time and will move to Castopod at the end of this renewal.
In the mean time I hand-hack 2.0 tags into my self-hosted feed. 🤷♂️ Adam's right: for a lot of different reasons these things move slowly even among early adopters... it's not time to apply brakes anywhere IMO.
Podcasting is by it's very nature a purity test. If it's not in the feed, it's not part of the podcast. That is true for ever single tag except for value. I understand how important the value tag is, and I understand using the shim to get something going. My suggestion is to start moving away from that and to set a hard date for when it would be discontinued so the podcasters can find a better host, and the hosts can become that better host.
Just like we have the slogan "Get a better app at newpodcastapps.com" I'm suggesting it's time to start pushing for "Get a better host at newpodcasthosts.com"
@StevenB I suppose the fine line to walk is that we don't want to pull the shim out from under 75% of the value-enabled shows.
Another question that comes to mind: how does the fountain podcaster wallet work? Does it leverage the current podcasting 2.0 shim or do they have a proprietary one? And how do you sunset theirs if so?
I do get the feed-as-truth argument tho, it's a good one and why I shove tags clumsily into my own feed for now and plan on getting a better option in the near future
Ultimately, Podcaster Wallet isn't my baby, and because I use the Index to get most of the data from about a podcast, I'm able to get the info from Podcaster Wallet.
I don't think the shim should be pulled out immediately, but if the feed is to be the source of truth, then eventually it should be, otherwise the only way for a podcast player to provide the value option to most podcasts would be having to hit the Podcast Index API, not the feed itself.
As far as Fountain, they're tied into the Podcaster Wallet through a private API they can hit. However, if the Podcaster Wallet can create an API, then any decent host can create an API. It could be an opportunity for Fountain to partner with a host for an exclusive deal, or every host utilizes a common API, or the podcaster has to manually enter their Fountain wallet info into their feed just like you have to with an Alby or LNPay wallet (which Fountain is behind the scenes)
@StevenB the host side of things was definitely the biggest drag back when I was host shopping last billing cycle. I admit I haven't looked around since last fall so I dunno who's doing what currently
Here's the three offering. If you're looking for support for almost all of the tags, JustCast has a ton of them. Them and RSS Blue seem on the smaller side of things, but Castos seems like they have a nice size support team.
@StevenB @SirSpencer Many of the tags have to be backed by something to be useful. Chapters and transcripts have to reference an external file and the hosts can host that easily. Value is a unique tag that requires running bitcoin infrastructure for it to work which is beyond the expertise or legal willingness of most hosting companies. Once the new greenlight framework is deployed within lightning lsp’s I think we can decommission PW. A year maybe.
Are you saying most hosting companies don't want to expose the value tag because they aren't providing a wallet for the podcaster to use? You're in more contact with them than I am, so you probably have more insight. I'm confused as to what the legal ramifications for allowing someone to put a lightning address in their feed would be for a host.
@StevenB @SirSpencer Yes the first part. The infrastructure isn’t solid enough to roll out an lnpay node and hope for the best. Legally and technically they need the semi custodial model that’s coming. It’s just how they need to roll. They can’t go full scissors which is what it is right now on the value side.
Yeah, I definitely don't want to see anyone screwed, and I love what Podcaster Wallet has allowed, but I don't like seeing companies like Spotify that are trying to close the ecosystem benefit in the interim by being able to host popular podcasts that are benefiting from the namespace.
They are becoming "uninvestible" in the current economic climate
That makes sense. I'm not even sure if value is technically even in the namespace yet. When I look at the closed tags, I'm not seeing value as one of them. And I can totally understand from a hosting side, if they're going to provide a tag, they want to control all aspects of a tag. I think the thing that spun me up the most is seeing 70% of the top ten Bitcoin Podcasts are using Anchor. I just wish they would think about that choice and pick a better host.
I would also think it might be better in the long term for Fountain to start talking to hosts about developing value tags and an API. If the Podcaster Wallet is eventually going away, there's going to be a lot of Fountain Supported Podcasters using Anchor that won't have a host that supports the value block, and migrating them all over to a different host may be a nightmare. Might be an easier task while the numbers are still small.
Way way too many that are hosted by Anchor. Especially considering their whole message is how great Bitcoin is and how it gives us freedom and sovereignty, but then they all go to Anchor.
But they have the tools for self hosting now, Podcaster Generator, Wordpress with Blubrry Plugin and LehmanCreations plugin V1.5, Castopod, Sovereign Feeds. It's very doable now for anyone who wants to do it.
@StevenB that reminds me I need to make value tags a first class citizen still rather than focusing on user and configuration refactoring
I think for self-hosters at this moment, value and live are probably the most desirable things to have right now.
@StevenB it's certainly the case for me, but there is a lot of tech debt in Podcast Generator that needs resolution for a number of other features I've also been asked for.a
Oh yeah, Whoops.
It was suppose to be
"The most played and most supported shows about Bitcoin on the Fountain app"
@StevenB I don't know if you can edit the first Toot or not. I've done it for single ones but I don't know about a thread.
Intended for all stake holders of podcasting who are interested in improving the eco system