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RE: live chat in Podverse

One of the most popular requests we've been getting is adding support for live chat during live streams. This would be a killer feature, but we're constrained by the fact there isn't an official 2.0 namespace for it yet.

It's also a complex issue. For ex. if a podcast uses IRC, then a user will need to log into each individual chat room. Not a great UX. But if a podcast uses XMPP or Matrix then they could log in once and join any server with the same federated account

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Our preference at the moment would be XMPP, because it is a federated chat solution that is much simpler to integrate than Matrix (according to what I've heard). That said, we know we need to meet podcasters and listeners where they are at, so we're also open to IRC and/or Matrix if people can help define a path forward for us.

@podverse one thing on the side of @matrix is that it can be a hub for other protocols too: for example, all of @liberachat is bridged and other #IRC servers could be too. Some quick reading makes it seem similar may be true for #XMPP.

@technicalissues @podverse @matrix @liberachat Another thing to consider is that IRC and XMPP are internet standards and not dependend on any single vendor. Matrix is just another IM product of a single startup and not submitted or published by any standards body.

@podverse @kaip @technicalissues @liberachat nor did we. clearly we’re hallucinating the open standards process at spec.matrix.org and matrix.org/foundation

@kaip @matrix @podverse @technicalissues @liberachat Having published specifications and having many open servers and clients outright existing seems sufficient! If your only objection is that no formal standards body is involved, that seems like an incredibly weak objection (and also I have some bad news for you about many "standards" that are supported by standards bodies but in practice aren't actually supported in the wild, and also I have some bad news about how "open" many of those standards bodies are...).

@matrix @kaip @technicalissues @liberachat

I get the impression there is a disagreement about the semantics of the term "open protocol" here. In any case, we look forward to integrating XMPP, Matrix, and IRC for podcast livestream chat rooms.

@matrix

FWIW, I guess the real issue is that by and large #Matrix is a one-company show, with no significant drive from other parties. If it were to become more of a real group effort, perhaps with vector taking more of an administration role and letting others drive innovation, there would be less resistance?

@podverse @kaip @technicalissues @liberachat

@0 @podverse @kaip @technicalissues @liberachat This is just demonstrably untrue. Well over half the MSCs over the last few years have come from outside the core team, and there are tonnes of other companies contributing: Beeper.com, Famedly.com, Folivo.net, Keanu.im etc. etc. Your information is about 5 years stale.

@matrix

If that is indeed the case I'll retract my comment. In any case, I feel that if you actually represent the project, a less belligerent attitude would go a long way on the making friends and influencing people front. 😛

@podverse @kaip @technicalissues @liberachat

@kaip @technicalissues @podverse @matrix @liberachat

this is wrong, Matrix is regularly published by the Matrix Foundation (matrix.org/foundation/).
"Internet Standard" is a made up term by the IETF

@KitKat @kaip @technicalissues @podverse @matrix @liberachat and even at the IETF, IRC (to the best of my knowledge) was only ever published as Informational, which doesn't make it an Internet Standard in IETF terms.

@technicalissues @podverse @matrix @liberachat

Matrix has made it part of the marketing strategy to say that they're all about providing interoperability and bridges between chat protocols.

The funny thing is, this is largely the same stuff that XMPP people said twenty years ago.

For XMPP, there is Biboumi which is a bridge between IRC and XMPP and which works well.

Besides IRC, are there other platforms that are reliably bridged to Matrix? They stopped making an effort bridging XMPP.

@podverse right now its just an iframe. Will that also be an option?

@adam for web it should definitely be an option (Curiocaster + @StevenB has proven this already).

I'm not sure about how it will work in a mobile app? Maybe we just drop the iframe url in a webview and it works like magic? We can give it a try at least. Should be relatively low effort. I'll try to get to it by this weekend.

Again it's not preferred UX-wise over a federated chat option like XMPP or Matrix, but any chat is better than no chat.

@podverse I don’t think you would need to log into most of the rooms on zeronode. You don’t in the standard clients or the kiwi stuff found on something of the show websites. The only one that requires voicing (as far as I’m aware) is No Agenda and the .

@behindthesch3m3s cool. I'm really not a savvy IRC user so that's part of why I've been lagging on adding it to Podverse 😬

@behindthesch3m3s i'd love to I just have sooooo many chat applications 😵‍💫 lol hard to keep up.

I've logged into the troll room using LimeChat on Mac before.

@podverse No doubt. You should come by on a Monday night sometime to check out the bot Gal and her BoostBot prowess!

@theDanielJLewis not sure if you agree or disagree lol but I only mean w/r/t IRC's lack of federated account login. It'd be a better UX to login in to one account, and then be able to chat using that same account in any XMPP or Matrix room.

@podverse Or allow social logins.

The thing that concerns me most as we start talking about live-chat integrations is that it has the potential to seriously alienate the majority of podcasters who use things that already work beautifully and perfectly.

Consider Twitch or YouTube Live for example. It's super easy to get started on those, both as a streamer and as a viewer. I want to see P2.0's live-chat feature support what podcasters already use instead of forcing them into geeky distractions.

@theDanielJLewis do Twitch and YouTube allow 3rd party apps to integrate their chat room?

We’re not opinionated on which chat rooms we’ll use. Open standards are preferred because we know they’ll remain constant, and can potentially extend them as needed, but if demand is sufficiently high for non-open standards chats, we’re not opposed to adding them too.

@podverse Ray Ortega always updates podcastersroundtable.com/live/ to include the YouTube Live chat for that event. It's a simple iframe embed.

@theDanielJLewis hmmm but if a podcaster wants to direct users to chatting on YouTube, why not just say “subscribe to our live stream on YouTube”? Then they get livestream notifications and a chat room from YouTube without a podcast app shepparding people to YouTube.

If YouTube officially allows 3rd party apps to add live steam chat then it’s a possibility, but if it’s like an unofficial iframe workaround we don’t want to invest effort in something that can break without warning.

@podverse Because that's yet another place to follow and manage notifications. I think the core purpose of the Live tag is to notify existing followers when a show is / will be live and take them to it—whether by embedding or by simple redirect.

@theDanielJLewis as long as YouTube provides a formalized way to handle these integrations I’m open to it.

But if it’s just an “oops! You can’t play this in Podverse! Here’s the YouTube link!” I’ll have to think about that more.

@podverse @theDanielJLewis The specs we build must be decentralized and app native. YouTube wants to own podcasting just like Spotify. I have no desire to help them do it. I’d rather spend energy fleshing out XMPP to IRC/Matrix gateways to accommodate the existing podcasters who are using IRC and giving other podcasters the ability to spin one up easily. I agree with Mitch that if they want YouTube chat just go to YouTube. Like trying to have a wife and girlfriend both at the same time.

@dave @theDanielJLewis

> Like trying to have a wife and girlfriend both at the same time.

🤣

@dave @podverse @theDanielJLewis github.com/42wim/matterbridge I use matterbridge to sync my nextcloud talk chats with irc and discord, all messages show everywhere. Looks like it also supports xmpp. Don't know if this helps at all.

@podverse Plus, streaming tools like Ecamm Live and StreamYard can pull in the live chat from YouTube Live, Facebook Live, and other common live-streaming platforms.

@theDanielJLewis @podverse Seems like "Following a Hashtag" kind of thing might work as a chat, where people can post messages that automatically include the hashtag that is specific to the broadcast/show/episode. The "Chat Room" would be just a rev-chron view of those messages as they get posted to that hashtag.

cc: @adam @Gargron @dave

@clay @podverse @dave I think a better way could be to allow URL-embedding as the chat room, or you could automatically extract it from the live URL, like with YouTube Live events.

Then, a podcaster could use any chat room tool they want: ChatRoll, YouTube Live, self-hosted, IRC, etc.

@theDanielJLewis @podverse @dave

Yeah I was thinking more 'Fediverse-centric'. I'm ready to say Fediverse has "won" and forget about other social media. There's also the concept of "Groups" in ActivityPub so it would be interesting to see if/how that could be leveraged to accomplish podcast-specific private conversations...like how to build a chat room using groups or if that's workable. I haven't looked into groups in AP yet.
@theDanielJLewis @podverse oops, I used the wrong cc button in my app... oh well.
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