@mikeneumann V4V is a voluntary payment but this is not a sustainable model for podcasters or music artists. Busking or begging for money is not a sustainable model. We need to have three models - free interrupted with adverts, ad free model with subscriptions and a third way where you pay only for what you listen too.
I am a massive advocate of V4V but lets be honest its not getting mass adoption because the mainstream sees no value in it. Why pay for the same free podcast on Apple?
@samsethi @mikeneumann The platform subscription model is less sustainable. Talk to any of the musicians now doing v4v and they will tell you that Spotify pays them $0 for their music. Some of these artists have millions of plays and have received nothing for them.
@ericpp @mikeneumann We know Spotify and music companies are ripping off musicians. My point was how can we get more people to adopt V4V so podcasters and artists can be paid directly. But my thought was while Apple Podcasts remains free will people feel the need to get a wallet and pay?
@samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
You're asking this question amongst a group of people that have all volunteered to get a wallet and pay, so yes, while Podcasts remain free (which they all are) people will feel the need to get a wallet and pay if it's a podcast they're passionate enough to support.
It's coming across that you would like to see a model similar to Medium or Substack for audio, which Truefans could totally become, but then it ceases to be podcasting. RSS is the open internet.
@StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann I too have volunteered to get a wallet and pay millions of sats. I too have spent 2+ years promoting and building podcasting 2.0
I am simply trying to get a conversation going and asking this group about how can we (collectively) can get more people to use wallets, understand sats and thus make it more rewarding for podcasters and artists. Yes I need TrueFans to generate a revenue. 2 years+ of no income following the dream of Podcasting 2.0 is not sustainable.
@samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
I guess it comes down to different motivation for different folks. I suspect most of us on this instance are working on this because it's a passion project, not because we're trying to generate revenue, so our goals are different.
I'm perfectly happy working with these guys making a v4v concert that I suspect less than 200 people saw, because it was fun for me, not because I was going to make any money. The $40 I did make was bonus, but not why I did it.
@StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann that is great and admire you for that but I need to turn TrueFans into a sustainable business or I need to move on and find another project. Taking a risk to start a business that eventually brings a return is what every entrepreneur risks with no guarantees but it's not a passion project for me while I do another job to pay the bills. I am 100% focused on TrueFans.
@samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
I understand and respect that, and I hope you're able to figure out how to turn it into a business. I think TrueFans is great looking app, and you're very innovative with the features you're adding. I wish I had some suggestions, but I'm not sure how to make podcasting profitable as an app when there's so many free options available and RSS is by it's very essence free to access.
@StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann thanks Steven. I promise I was not trying to agitate, I was trying to start a group discussion on how collectively we could expand the know universe of people using wallets and paying SATs. Maybe my point about Apple is mute and that's fine. I will continue to try and innovate and find a way to make TrueFans profitable without exploiting the customer. ;-)
@samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
Honestly, I think it's going to take Podcasters more than anything. They have the audience, and if they can do an ad read for a Casper mattress, and say "Subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts" then they can say "Look guys, you're my audience, and you're my support system, and I hate reading Casper mattress ads to you. Go check out Truefans, they've made it easy for you to support me. Follow the link in the show notes for a tutorial"
@StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann agree lets hope that happens and if not TrueFans then Fountain, Podverse, PodcastGuru etc. What I am trying to grapple with is how do we change the podcasters mentality. That can only happen if users first understand V4V and which wallet to use and why SATs and not fiat etc. Oh well happy Friday!
@samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
I'm not sure if it's possible at this point. I wish there was an easy way to program sending fiat instead of sats, I wish there was an easy way to use Lightning, but none of this is easy right now. I've pondered how can we make this easier myself. I've even demonstrated to people in person, and most of them look at me like I'm doing open heart surgery. I wish I had better answers, but for now, I think the tools are still too complicated for most.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
I should probably do another round of explaining V4V in the board room. a few thoughts here in the meantime;
V4V does not work as a 'pay as you play' model. It is a relationship between the podcaster and the audience. It is not tipping and certainly not 'begging'.
It is an exchange between humans, who respect and support each other.
Yes, it is hard to sustain a living that way and I know because it will be 17 years of living V4V in October.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
We diligently produce 7 hours of programming every week, even on Holidays. We send out newsletters and always complete the feedback loop in our programming. We have motivated out audience to be 'producers' and not just listeners. They truly provide time talent and treasure.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
Part of their 'job' is to promote the show, they also build and maintain websites, produce art and organize meetups as well as provide us with their knowledge in their fields of expertise that we incorporate into the programming.
Re-read Value4Value.info
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
This 'monetization' conversation is not new. The same happened with blogging, people think they deserve to get paid when that is simply not the case. Everything starts with an outstanding product that people are willing to support.
Conversely, it is ludicrous to expect people to pay for anything they consume that is freely available, and to make this a requirement. Just because it is micropayments is frankly insulting to audiences.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
Podcasting was also never developed as a way to 'make money'. it was a way to be heard, to communicate ideas without interference or censorship. To date it is still one of the only remaining communication formats to fulfill that mission.
d.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
Podcastindex.org was created to ensure longevity of the free and open RSS distribution of content in an age where corporations are stupidly being trusted with protecting speech and ideas from censorship, agendas and financial motives.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann
If @dave and I had started this to make money or quit our day jobs, it would have ended quickly. We simply used the same principals: if people appreciate the value they receive, they will support it, if not the it goes away. We have no expectations, and certainly cannot interpret value for anyone but ourselves.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
We added lighting payments as a mechanism to also subvert deplatforming of people from payment rails. Although that has been difficult, we are still hanging in there and evolving as we can. It was not developed as a way to 'make money'.
In my opinion and experience, the only people who can motivate people to support the Value4Value model is the content makers themselves. No app or service has that relationship.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
If people think that can just set up a wallet and start earning, they have not understood the model.
I am delighted that the lightning network facilitates sharing of value, regardless of how much or little it is. No Agenda has multiple splits that go to producers who provide value back daily. Whatever is left goes to the Index. I love seeing apps getting a share, which is unique in ANY monetization model.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
I am grateful that Apple provides a solid app and backend for their users at no cost, as they keep the original mission available at scale.
That said, I never promote them in my show, I always talk about independent apps, their benefits and why it is important to support their development. After all, it was Apple's decision to de-platform several podcasts in 2018 that started this project in the first place.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
For historical context, the namespace was created for the sole reason of adding the value block, delightfully many people had ideas for expanding the podcasting rss system and we have some solid additions that are now slowly spreading out to other platforms and apps. To expect this to be a fast process is underestimating the resources available for this at all levels.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
In the middle of all this beauty, Spotify came in like a 400 pound gorilla and tried to buy their way into the eco system and capture the market. They spent $1 Billion and failed, not just financially, they made many podcasts irrelevant, and wasted resources on programming no one wanted BECAUSE of the open content freely available.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
The community that has grown here is astounding to me, we are from many different cultures, countries and backgrounds, yet we all are working generally to maintain the same mission of a free and open communications ecosystem for all people. The addition of V4V with the lightning network is not a promise of employment or riches, it is a mechanism to share value to those who have provided value. A common metric not provided anywhere else.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
Every sat that comes in makes me happy, because I know that someone went through the trouble of showing respect and value, not just for what I did, but what the entire system and the people who maintain and extend it do on a daily basis.
@StevenB @samsethi @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
In closing, I have much respect for the hosting companies and the people that run them. They have very real fixed and variable costs, including support staff. They are the lifeblood of podcasting and to see the distributed nature of this service assures me we will be podcasting for a long time to come. Thank God
@adam @StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave apps need to make money just as much as the hosts? Apps have real fixed and variable costs and we will need support staff too. Just saying.
@samsethi @StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
When you stop thinking about 'money' and think in terms of 'value', your view changes and becomes much more realistic.
@adam @StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave I just told the wife that. I won’t tell you what she said ;-)
@samsethi @adam @StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave As a soon to be 20 year podcaster that has had a sponsor for 19 years my audience knows I get compensated for my ad reads.
They are less inclined to participate in V4V simply because of that fact. I am sure if my sponsor dropped me. That the dynamics would change.
But I would need to really work hard to make up the difference.
@samsethi @adam @StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
Regarding Blubrry, we were a media company first and a hosting company second. After four years of incredible growth, we saw the handwriting on the wall as professional agencies showed up.
We were making things up as we went and the ad model had a downward trajectory. In 2008 I pivoted to a service-based company it saved us.
90% of decisions I make in regards to blubrry is how do i add value to our customers and add revenue.
@samsethi @adam @StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
The podcast landscape is changing, and the big boys are forcing narrative change.
I can only make suggestions to Apple and others and have done so. Be assured they are listening, but they move at Apple's speed. Believe it or not, they do not have unlimited programmer resources to make the changes that I and others hope for, but they do listen.
We need to continue talking to them about what will help listeners and podcasters.
@Todd_Blubrry @samsethi @StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
I tell my audience to use modern podcast apps, I promote different ones, with 834k downloads in June, this is how I move the needle:
@Todd_Blubrry @samsethi @StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
Please notice ZERO Spotify, because we don't allow Spotify to distribute our show. Hasn't hurt us one bit.
@adam @Todd_Blubrry @samsethi @StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave My latest podcast (with a trailer episode), Pluck the Day, is not distributed by the "legacy" podcast apps.
https://podnews.net/podcast/iiy40#all
@james Is "YouTube Music" a hack by @Podnews?
@nathan Will @episodesfm list my podcast in the future? It is no hurry... ;) I will record and publish a new episode in the near future. :)
@podhome Barry: Talk soon!
@Todd_Blubrry @samsethi @StevenB @ericpp @mikeneumann @dave
Here's an example of the pitch: